Arlene Goldbard conducted and edited this interview with Tommy Orange and myself in 2013 as a project for Storycenter (www.storycenter.org). It was published in The Republic of Stories issue #3 (Summer 2013).
Tommy Orange is an enrolled member of the Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes of Oklahoma. He worked with the Native American community in the Bay Area for several years, three of them spent developing a media center for the Native American Health Center. He received a B.S. in the Sound Arts in 2004 and was awarded a MacDowell Fellowship in 2014. Tommy grew up in Oakland, California. His recent critically acclaimed novel There There focuses on the urban Indian experience.
Arlene Goldbard is a writer, public speaker, cultural activist, and consultant to StoryCenter and other organizations. She has published The Culture of Possibility: Art, Artists & The Future and The Wave. Read about them, subscribe free to her blog, and watch videos of her talks at arlenegoldbard.com.
Arlene Goldbard: Let’s begin with you telling readers how story figures into who you are in the world and the work that you do.
Tommy Orange: The way it’s influenced my life is that I feel like I can only receive or engage with information when it comes in the form of story and the meaning that comes with that. I didn’t do well in school: I could hear the noise of the information being given to me, but I didn’t know what that means, what’s the context. I’ve been trying to collect stories from my parents my whole life in order to understand how I’m situated and where I come from.
This is something I’ve only realized since I’ve been so enmeshed in digital storytelling. I started doing it about two and a half years ago. First getting trained at the StoryCenter and then working in the Native community doing storytelling workshops led to me realizing the power and the role that story has played in my life.
Also, in 2005, my dad got cancer, level-4 lymphoma. He had four Native American church ceremonies and was healed. That was one of my first ceremonial experiences; we didn’t grow up that way. That changed everything for me. I started realizing that there was a narrative going on inside the ceremony. It was story through song and prayer. I grew up in Oakland with a lot of other people of mixed backgrounds. I was not culturally steeped in any regard. It was the beginning of my journey toward an understanding of myself as an Indian person, as a mixed person. This is the heart of how I started connecting to story, to my own story, and to my family’s story.
In regards to my work, I’m working as a digital storytelling facilitator—work I very much believe in—and also my personal work writing a novel that includes many voices. The idea is that a chorus of voices tells a story to the people. The majority of Native people live in cities now. There hasn’t really been much about that story of Native people now: their interaction or collision with the city and what that looks like, the Oakland urban Indian experience in general.
Working in digital storytelling has made me realize that a collective of these personal stories tells a meta-story that says more than a single voice could ever say.
Arlene: How about you, Tony? Situate this topic for us in your world.
Tony Platt: I was trained as a sociologist and a historian and have always written politically-informed, activist writings. But I didn’t start writing personal stories until the ‘70s when my son, Daniel, became ill and nearly died for the first time. I started writing stories about that experience with him and then the experiences with the medical system—sort of dark, satiric, humorous stories as a way of dealing with the horror of what I was experiencing and what he was experiencing. That I found very helpful and cathartic. I began to really enjoy the particular form of the non-fiction, first-person story, the craft of trying to do that in a way that would be interesting and would reach people and communicate.
For several years those two tracks of my writing were very separate, a creative writing voice and an academic, political activist voice. When my formal academic career began to end (or it didn’t really make a difference to my career what I did), I decided I wanted to try to bring those two voices together. So about ten years ago I started trying to write histories that were seriously researched, dealing with hard topics, controversial topics, but that would also be informed by a personal sensitivity, a first-person voice, a storytelling voice.
First was a book called Bloodlines: Recovering Hitler’s Nuremberg Laws, from Patton’s Trophy to Public Memorial about the history of eugenics and racism in California, and more recently in my last book, Grave Matters, which starts off again with my son, with a scattering of his ashes up at Big Lagoon where we have a vacation cabin in Humboldt. That led me to discover what I’d really not faced before: the history of the desecration of the Native graves in that very same site and everywhere else in California.
So the experience of Daniel and his death and mourning him and trying to figure out how to commemorate him then very organically led me to working with Native groups in Humboldt and to exploring the history of the death and desecration of Native graves in that area. So I’ve begun to write about those two experiences together. My story writing now is still activist. I’ve tried to make the activism less polemical and more tried to relate my activism to where people are at, to try to find some common ground through personal stories and then take them into the political activism that they may or may not want to explore.
I also try to deal in my stories with hard issues of the past, issues dealing with race – this history of California that is such a tragic history and mostly gets forgotten and discarded and turned into upbeat mythological stories that are taught to our kids. There’s now a very rich historical record about California. If anybody asks us now what is the tragic side of California history, we could give a good answer from the historical record and oral histories and so on. But when we look at public histories—what shows up in textbooks, in schools, in public places, in memorials, rituals, commemorations—here we seem to practice a scrupulous amnesia and not deal with it. So that’s what’s preoccupying me now: how to take a lot of the things that we know and make them a part of everyday common sense, a part of not just a historical record, but a public conversation about political issues.
Arlene: One through-line I hear in both your descriptions is that you reached the point in your lives where data couldn’t encompass reality for you, couldn’t describe your experience in a way that was sufficient to portray all its dimensions. Story becomes multi-layered, without separation between the personal and the political, a container that can really hold all that one is experiencing. These days, that reality is impressing itself more and more on people.
Tommy O.: I think David Foster Wallace said that with the total noise of the information age, we need something that cuts through. The super-personal story moves into the supra-personal story, because when you start getting at why the things you’re talking about in your story affect you, you’re getting at universal truths. The more personal you can go, the more likely you’re going to connect with more people, as odd as it sounds.
Tony P.: At the same time, a part of that worries me. It used to be that the personal story and the oral history were very rare. Now it’s also become commercialized, particularly with the confessional talk shows, the Oprah Winfrey syndrome. My worry is that sometimes people can stick with a personal story and not look at the larger issues or that the personal story can become fetishized and made into a commodity or made sentimental. I know when I talk about my book and the issues I’m concerned about, I start with the place up in Humboldt, with my son’s death, and then I move on to these larger issues. I want to take people on that journey. But I also know that people have curiosity about my personal relationship with my son’s death and all the feelings associated with that, and sometimes that can become a distraction, not just for the audience but also for myself in terms of trying to tell a larger story. There are many different kinds of personal story and storytelling. Some of them can actually become quite conservative and produce an inward experience only.
Arlene: What do you think about that, Tommy?
Tommy O.: I much more have in mind the story where the personal histories and the larger history can merge and be told through personal story. It’s much more likely that those are going to engage people. I totally agree about the fetishizing of the personal, that junk TV sort of sentimentality. There’s a risk to indulging in that. Personally, I’m able to engage more with history when I can hear people that connect to it because of their own personal story.
Arlene: I was wondering about another dimension of this when I looked at the young people’s stories from the New Haven All Together Now workshop. I noticed that the stories done by older people in Berkeley were mostly about an individual in relation to a larger movement, a journey in life that connected to the spirit of the times and the places where injustice was coming forward and needed to be addressed. More of the young people’s stories were about how they had internalized a view of themselves as less than they are, and now realize they are worthwhile. That’s a different journey in a different part of life, but there wasn’t as much connecting in most of those stories to larger issues. Now a new iteration of All Together Now is coming up, two generations relating to the 50th anniversary of many Southern civil rights movement milestones. So I’m wondering: how do you create what you’re both talking about, the opportunity and ability to connect the little story and the big story with young people who haven’t had a whole lifetime of doing that already?
Tony P.: I think the problem with the two sets of interviews is that we were drawn from different contexts and we were asked different questions. The group that was pulled together in Berkeley through Osher Lifelong Learning Institute had been socially and in some cases politically active for a long time. When we sat down and talked together, that’s really what we had in common. The young people were coming of age and trying to find their voice and the social meaning of their life. But it really wasn’t a conversation because we were dealing with different issues and weren’t asked common questions. I think that conversation can take place. The socio-cultural context young people are involved in today is different than the struggles and cultural issues that I was involved in. Through music and the arts there’s a way into a political and social life that is different than coming into activism like I did through formal political social movements. We have different starting places. The conversation can take place, but I don’t think it’s begun yet.
Arlene: What could be the prompt to open up that conversation? If you were sitting in a room full of teenagers and a group of people in your generation, what question would you want to throw out?
Tony P.: First of all, if you’re talking about two groups of people that have very different class and racial histories like the two groups that were brought together, then it’s very hard to find a common question. We’re talking about primarily working-class urban kids. The older group in Berkeley was—not necessarily from birth—middle-class activists, an educated group of people. It’s not so much the prompt question as to try to find what the common ground would be. Do you see yourself trying to change the world in some way? How would that be? Something as open-ended as that. It doesn’t have to be politics in a formal sense, it can be through music or cultural activity or whatever. So I think there’s two issues: one is the differences in our class and education and speaking different historical languages, and the other is trying to find a prompt that isn’t bound by class and race that opens up different possibilities.
Tommy O.: I agree with Tony about the differences of race, class, and history. But what I’ve been able to see growing up as a young person in this generation is that there hasn’t been any movement that has felt passionate enough—like the way it was in the golden days of activism for my mom, who was a hippie in the ‘60s who wanted to cross the country with dreams of being a dancer in New York and ended up at a peyote commune in New Mexico where she met my dad. That spirit is something I’ve always wished my generation had, but I’ve never seen it. There’s passion, but it feels like it’s displaced or fragmented. I think that’s the result of how much information is out there and the freedom to explore any area of your own personal interest—and how much there is to explore with the noise of the internet, which makes for a very fragmentary situation. The amount of information makes it hard for there to be one movement or one solid thing to get behind.
At the same time, the amount of information we do have makes for a much more cynical generation. When I was watching some of the older generation’s stories, they kind of ended on a note of, “We need to do something more.” The spirit of activism does not feel alive in my generation or even the younger ones. It feels like people know the information, but they’re not rising up. So I don’t really know what’s connecting the two generations, where their common ground is.
Arlene: I’m a veteran of that period, too. We felt that what we thought, what we felt, and what we did made a huge difference in the world. They have a phrase for that: the revolution of rising expectations. As the energy of possibility aggregates, you do more because you feel it really matters. It’s very different from the internalized powerlessness and discouragement that sometimes seems rampant. People internalize the voice that says you don’t have power, you don’t have capacity. Paulo Freire had a phrase for that: “Internalization of the oppressor.” That’s a hard gap to bridge.
Tony P.: I think Marx said that we make history, but not under conditions that we choose. It’s purely a biological accident that I was born into the post-WWII period, a period of profound transformations taking place all over the world. We did feel like we were in the majority, even though we weren’t, and that gave a tremendous boost in optimism to the movement. This is a very different time in world history. We’ve had the defeat of communism, of socialist regimes, of the hopefulness of all the nationalist movements that came out of Africa, Latin America, that were going to not just provide independence from colonialism but also new systems of justice. So we’re in this in-between period of world history where people are somewhat dissatisfied with the past and present systems but trying to figure out new models for the future. That’s very different than leaving the classroom when I was a student and walking outside and having all those movements pull me in. I think this is a much more difficult period.
On July the 4th, I always like to read Frederick Douglass’ 1852 speech, “What does July the 4th mean to the Negro?” It’s an incredible speech. He basically says, This is your celebration, not ours. This is your country, your patriotism, not ours. There’s this one sentence that I wrote down yesterday when I was reading it again: “This is 1852. America is false to the past, false to the present, and solemnly binds herself to be false to the future.” This is 1852. He clearly feels a great despair. Then ten years later we have the ‘60s—not the 1960s, but the 1860s and the Civil War, the end of slavery, and all the problems that came after the hope of Reconstruction.
Nevertheless, that totally changed the relationship of Africans and black people to this country and gave Douglass a much more optimistic view of the future. Ten or fifteen years later, he was then talking about the need to celebrate July the 4th as a black holiday as well as a white holiday. Things can change very quickly. We shouldn’t underestimate this, though I do think we’re in a very hard, difficult, strange time in world history and I think there’s going to be a lot of times in the future that will get much worse before there’s a possibility of things getting better. Still, things change fast.
Arlene: It’s important to remember that. I think back to the late ‘80s: no one predicted the fall of the Soviet Bloc, the fall of Apartheid at precisely that time. A lot of people wanted to claim it after the fact, but pretty much everyone was surprised. I like the fact that I’ve lived to see some big surprises in world history. It suggests there might be others. Is there something else you’d like to say, something my questions didn’t touch on that is important to you?
Tony P.: One is the particular kind of storytelling we’re doing that addresses a racist history against Native peoples, particularly in California for me. We’re up against the romance of the Indian and how that figures into how we tell stories. That’s one issue that’s very curious. You get that romantic, back-to-nature Indians–are-one-with-nature story which is not true of any other racial narrative in the United States. You don’t hear it about Chicanos, Americans, or Asians. It’s a peculiar thing, this hatred and romance, the two sides of that and how you negotiate with that.
The other thing is that with historians, there’s been a lot of critique in the past about left progressive historians tending to create meta-narratives that didn’t take into account all the incredible regional differences in the United States. I do think it’s important to collect the regional and local stories, but to also then go back to the larger story, whether it’s the story of genocide and displacement, the profound cruelty of what happened to Native peoples in California. Not to get lost just in the local and the regional, but also to try to attach all of these regional and local variations. It’s very important to enrich that larger story or meta-narrative, to try to keep that relationship going between the larger story and the local story.
Tommy O.: On the other side of the romanticization is the meta-narrative of the America that needs to keep the story of America intact, needs to keep it tried and true, needs to keep the story of America as wholesome as possible. And that comes with an incredible amount—especially now, with how much we know—of ignoring and also of redefining what Indian people are doing, which is based on this Christian idea that if we’re supposed to be holding dominion over the earth, that comes along with civilization and advancement and progress. So what you have is the story of people that were advanced and holding dominion over the earth like they should and escaping from religious persecution—this is the meta- narrative—coming here and finding basically wild beasts doing nothing with the earth. In that meta-narrative, if you’re not doing anything that’s advancing civilization, if you’re in harmony with the earth, you’re like a beast or a thing to be dominated and you’re useless.
That’s not to say that Indians weren’t acting like humans all over the world have always acted; there was violence and depravity, I’m sure. But the idea that harmony with the earth—the basic idea that there was sustainability as a people and respect for the thing that they come from which is the earth—the idea that we weren’t doing anything with the land and so it’s justified that because of progress things had to go the way that they went. That basic restructuring of what happened and what’s behind that, people needing to be able to feel okay with America still being if not a good place or a good thing to have happened, at least a necessary and essential thing to have happened because of progress and the way that we think of it. Manifest Destiny, that meta-narrative is deeply disturbing to me in how much I encounter it from friends and people in my communities, that that’s still running underneath and informing their idea of who they are. It’s really disturbing when I come across it.
Arlene: How do you dislodge that?
Tommy O.: Stories. I believe that story is the way to rewrite it. A collection of stories is the way to rewrite a singular history that has been in textbooks, this single authority that is basically the U.S. government, which itself has huge investment in writing history in a particular way that makes it a single and not a collective narrative. I think it takes a lot of people telling a lot of stories about what their experience has been, what the experience of their ancestors has been.
Arlene: Thank you, Tommy. Tony?
Tony P.: I think this is incredibly critical. You get what I call the California Story that does a couple of important things. One, it creates an institutionalized amnesia about California’s bloody past, just cuts it out totally and doesn’t deal with it in a profound way. You can’t imagine, for example, going to Germany today and not tripping over the Holocaust and Nazis. Everywhere you go there are memorials, there’s commemorations, there’s rituals, there’s school discussions, there’s textbooks. Whatever people’s critiques of contemporary Germany, you have a country totally preoccupied with its past, constantly discussing it.
Then you come to California and it’s pretty much ignored. It’s ignored right from the beginning of kids getting that story in the fourth or fifth grade about the missions as agents of civilization and religiosity and bringing culture to the mindless savages of the West. They still get that. I just met with a group of teachers in Crescent City where the school system is under order to deal with the way in which it teaches about the history of race in California because of the discriminatory suspensions and reaction against Native kids in that county. The teachers and School Board are bringing in people to have conversations and so on. I went and talked to them about the new textbook that they use. On the surface, it seems very multicultural, but it says things like, “Indians have lived in California for hundreds of years.” That’s on page 102 of the textbook. I mean, it’s not just creating a mythical interpretation. It’s factually incorrect right from the beginning. Then there’s a wonderful line in it about how the padres came over and set up the missions to teach Indians how to work hard, again reinforcing this notion of laziness and unproductivity.
Without romanticizing the Native past of California, the people historically in this region did live very comfortably and productively, living long lives in symbiotic relationships—particularly in the Northwest—with the land and the water and so on. Misinformation comes at a very early age. It’s institutionalized in schools. It’s good that kids get to read around the seventh grade The Diary of Anne Frank and learn about the tragedy of personal experience of genocide in Europe. That’s the perfect opportunity for teachers to then come back and say what’s the comparable history in California, and we don’t do that.
When I go talk to college students about this, they’re open and receptive to these issues, but they feel like they’ve not learned anything until they’re in college, or they’ve mis-learned these histories. This is now so embedded in the cultural common sense about how people see the past. I do agree that stories are one way to get at this, but I think the school system has to get really shaken up to get a conversation going about this at a pretty young age. There are very few teachers and less parents trying to teach their kids the counter-narrative, refusing to let them go visit the mission and walk over the bodies of Native peoples buried there. There’s very little opposition going on in the schools.
Tommy O.: I think another indication of this unforgivable institutionalization of false history is that there are a lot of tribes in California that are not given federal recognition. The very fact that they aren’t has to do with how many of them have been killed: they don’t meet the requirements of largeness based on the very fact that they were killed by the U.S. government that will now not recognize them as tribes because they’re so small because they were killed. It’s just ridiculous.
Tony P.: Let me add one other thing, because I think, Tommy, that you referred to this before. I think the notion of American exceptionalism—that we’re a leader in the world, that we’re a leader of democracy and freedom and we take freedom other places—I think that’s so embedded that it’s difficult for educational and other institutions to think about the United States as a country like other countries, with its benefits and its weaknesses and its flaws, that we’re more like other places than superior to other places. Those kinds of chauvinist assumptions about American exceptionalism then make it very difficult for the educational system in particular to deal critically with this past and to open it up.
Tommy O.: I think this is at the heart of what’s hard about a dialogue on how to inspire change. This kind of information is really hard to integrate into the meta-narrative that everyone is taught. Like you’re saying, it takes institutional changes and story changes and social media efforts. It takes a lot because it’s an uprooting of a large story that has been told for many, many years. If you don’t see the institutions changing the story, and you basically trust the institutions, it’s really hard to know what can inspire. It’s not just the Indian problem, it’s the basic assumption that America is exceptional and is not like everyone else and we’re heroes. That’s a very difficult one to uproot.
Arlene: It goes to this concept that seems really powerful to me: potential consciousness. If you already believe something or are convinced of something, then there’s a limit on what you’re able to let in that might contradict that pre-formed consciousness.
Tony P.: If you’re a tourist or a visitor traveling to Humboldt or Del Norte, some of the sites of the bloodiest atrocities in California history, you can travel through that place and be open to learning and seeing it in new ways, but there are no rituals that are public, there are no memorials, no commemoration. You look at the tourist books and they’re about how Humboldt is unspoiled nature and what a wonderful place to visit and, yes, there are Indians there and they live with nature, too. It’s just shocking that you can be so oblivious in your public information and in your tourist information that when you come up against that it is a rupture and it does contest what everybody thinks is the common sense. History is powerful when people think that that is the way it is. With this mythic history of California and the failure to recognize it in the present, people think that’s the way it is. It’s been imbibed from such a young age and become so institutionalized.
Tommy O.: It’s also prevalent here in the Bay Area where there’s a lot of history and Native activism. Even here, you can go over to Emeryville to the Shellmound site—an Indian burial site—and you have this gigantic mall situation with these stores. It’s not even a mall that has a wider spectrum of classes that go there. It’s a high-end mall right on top of these burial sites and there wasn’t much consideration of not doing it because of how much money was behind it. Something as basic as going to this mall, you would never even know that it’s an Indian burial ground. Even the idea of an Indian burial ground sounds kind of ridiculous and Hollywoodish in and of itself because of the way it’s been portrayed in movies.
Arlene: The fact is, no matter where we stand around here, we’re standing on land that holds the memory and the bones of the people who came before those who live now. And that’s almost never acknowledged; those stories need telling.Thank you very much.